Wednesday, May 9, 2012

Javanese Indian Culture/History
Topic suggested by JayBee on Wed Mar 24 10:01:47 .
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

Dear Friends,

If you want to have a peep into a sample of Javanese Indian Art, please drop in drop in at




  • From: JayBee (@ on: Wed Mar 24 10:06:49

    Dear Friends,

    Sorry about the snag.

    Kindly disregard the "Regards JayBee" and use only the URL

  • From: JayBee (@ on: Wed Mar 24 10:16:05

    Dear Friends,

    From JayBee again.

    In late 1997, a new twenty thousand rupiah currency note was issued by the Indonesian government. It bore the picture of Ganesa. A very special form of Ganesa. It was printed for a very specific reason. And it DID cast its effect in a very sinister and peculiar way.
    To have a look at the currency note with little bit of explanation, please go to the URL

  • From: Chandra (@ on: Wed Mar 24 18:38:34


    That is very interesting.

    However based on the different forms of Ganesa and the well-known wisdom that the forms have their specific effect, I could not see from your URL what specifically about the Ganesa printed on the currency that should have made it easy to foresee the effects.

    I was surprised to learn that those images were off-shore at Bali, Java etc. as early as 700AD whereas it is said that Ganesa was brought to Tamilakam in the 7th century by ciRuththoNta n-AyanAr from his victorious return from the vAthApi campaign which apparently (base don what I read from an internet posting by DrNGanesan) has been questioned by findings of Ganesa around the 5th century AD in a manner connected with kAraikkAlammaiyAr.

    700 AD is too soon for the vAtApi theory to be true.

    Please elaborate.

  • From: bb (@ on: Thu Mar 25 02:27:56

    Dr.JB, thanks for the info. u have mentioned about tantric rites. can u explain what those rites are, and whether they exist thesedays?

  • From: Jaybee (@ on: Thu Mar 25 02:48:32

    Dear Chandra,

    The northern part of Peninsular Malaysia is the site of ancient Kadaram. It was invaded by a naval expedition of Rajendra I in the 11th century.

    But it was already a very well established kingdom as far back as the 3rd century AD.We have
    post-Brahmi inscriptions belonging to that age.
    Many artifacts that have been found in that area have been kept in a site museum. There, you can see a Ganesa statue which is made of sand stone. It belongs to the 4th-5th century A.D. It has come to these shores at a very early time.
    South Esat Asia nas received its cultural components from several sources. One among them is Tamilnadu. Others are Andra, Kalinga and Bengal.
    It is generally assumed that Ganesa was brought to Tamilnadu by Siruththondar.
    But Ganesa was already in Tamilnadu before that.
    The rock-cut Ganesa- the Karpaga Vinaayagar of
    PiLLaiyaarpatti fame is earlier than the period of
    Siruththondar. Furthermore, Appar's 3rd Thevaaram
    hymn staring with, "ChuNNa veN chandhana chaandum
    chudarth thinggaL suuLaamaniyum..." is one his earliest hymns. It was sung within a few days after he became a full-fledged Saivite. The 3rd
    verse has the lines...."kalamalakkittuth thiriyum Ganapathiyennum kaLiRum".
    This hymn also predates the Siruththondar's invasion of Vaataapi by 30 years.
    The rock-cut PiLLaiyaar of Mahipaalanpatti is also very ancient and is quite unique. There is no other statue like it, in Tamilnadu.Mahipaalanpatti is the PuungunRam of Sangam fam - "yaadhum uurE".
    The Vaataapi theory got strengthened only lately, mainly because of two factors.
    One was the "Sivagaamiyin Sabadham" by Kalki.
    The other is the practice of starting every Karnatic Music session with Dikshithar's "Vaataapi Ganapathim baje".
    The Vaataapi Ganapathi that Muthusami Dikshithar sang of, is in Thiruvaaruur.He is known as the Muulaadhaara Gamnapathi.
    The second one is in Thiruchengaattangudi. This was placed there by Siruththondar.
    It is true that Siruththondar also brought a Ganesa from Vaataapi. But that dose not necessarily mean that he brought it here first. People bring all sorts of trophy. Some get famous. Some don't -just like the Durga statue which was also brought from the Chalukyan country by an invasion of the Cholas.
    Incidentally, Rajendra Chola himself did bring a
    statue of Ganesa from the shores of the Ganges River. It is in Gangai Konda CholaPuram and the Ganesa is appropriately called "Gangai Vinaayagar".(Actually his C-in-C did it. Rajendra was already too old and was in Chidhambaram building a new capital city).
    There was a Ganesa statue brought from Vaataapi.
    Before that Ganesa worship was already present in Tamilnaadu. There were certain communities who were having Ganesa as a their primary deity.



  • From: JayBee (@ on: Thu Mar 25 04:28:02

    From: bb (@ on: Thu Mar 25 02:27:56

    Dr.JB, thanks for the info. u have mentioned about tantric rites. can u explain what those rites are, and whether
    they exist thesedays?

    bb's query regarding tantrik rites.

    We know about very few of the rites that the South East Asians practiced. Many of the Tantrik traits have passed into Sorcery. The rites have become well-mixed with what you people have been calling as Black Magic in another posting. Among the Malays, the practitioners are known as Bomohs. Their art is very secretive. They don't divulge to other races.
    A few years ago, there was a criminal case where a Bomoh couple killed a political VIP and cut up his body into 18 pieces. Their assistant who killed him pleaded that he was either hypnotised or under a trance. The couple had earlier killed other people as well. There have also been other such cases. Certain Bomohs have been arrested for having sex with young girls. The girls accused that the Bomohs called them to participate in a ritual. It might be a form of Vaamaachara Tantra.
    (Very few of the Tantras are of this nature. The great majority of them are Agamic in nature and rather "tame". It is wrong to generalise that Tantras are somethimg sinister. Thirumuular calls each chapter of his Thiru Manthiram as "Thanthiram").
    Since no scholar at present is making any study or research about this field, information is very scanty.



  • From: bb (@ on: Thu Mar 25 09:16:22

    thanks, jaybee.

  • From: Chandra (@ on: Thu Mar 25 11:31:06


    Thanks a lot for the info on Ganesa and on tantrism.

    Regarding Ganesa in Tamilakam earlier than appar days, I now recall seeing a veNpA on Ganesa said to be authored by pAratham pAtiya perun-thEvanAr (who composed the kAppu or katavuL vAzththu for many anthologies such as kuRun-thokai, n-ARRiNai etc.,) in a book on Ganesa by the Hindu Asramam at Hawaii.

    Since perun-thEvanAr is said to have been just at the end of the kataich changkam era when these antholgoies were compiled, that would definitely place Ganesa in Tamilakam significantly earlier than the bhakti period and jives well with your statement that Ganesa had reached east asia [from Tamilakam ?] as early as the 3rd century AD.

    Is there a specific candidate region or culture

    in India (or even outside!) for being the "source" of Ganesa? chALukya/vAthApi is already out it looks like.
    It is also reasonable to think that since elephants were part of every day life in the ancient days, worship of god in the form of an elephant must be very old indeed notwithstanding the fact that elephants are awesome beings.


  • From: JayBee (@ on: Thu Mar 25 22:34:22

    The Kavvai Aadhiinam must have taken that reference from the book on Vinaayagar Vazhipaadu by the Thiru Aavadu ThuRai Aadhiinam. There are several more pre-Pallava references. They are very authentic. Well-researched.

    The Sangam works did not get compiled immediately after the Sangam Era i.e., c.300 AD. It certainly took longer than that. In the meanwhile the Sangam works were temporarily lost.

    Ganesa worship:

    There are some out-side India sources. One is Tibet; the other is Japan; the third is China.
    I am trying to see out to the west.
    The Indian Elephant -Elephas Maximas- is now found only in South and South East Asia.
    But Hannibal had attacked Rome with elephants.
    He had transported them from his country Carthage in North Africa, across the Meditterranean Sea and then went overland. He crossed the Alps with his elephants and ravaged Italy.
    Now, you find elephants below the equatorial belt in Africa. And they are of a different species altogether - Loxodonta Africanus. This African elephant is untrainable. That's why you don't see them around in circuses. You see only our beloved Jumbo - Asian elephant.
    Hannibal must have obtained elephas maximas from somewhere near Carthage in North Africa.If Hannibal knew elephants, people before him also would have known it -in the Middle East.


  • From: bb (@ on: Fri Mar 26 10:38:04

    what was the period of hannibal?

  • From: vaasu (@ on: Fri Mar 26 15:17:04

    «ýÀ¢ý ¼¡ì¼÷ §ƒÀ¢

    ¾¢ÕÅÄïÍƢ¢ø ­ÕìÌõ ÅÄõÍÆ¢ À¢û¨Ç¡ÕìÌ
    §ÁÖûÇ ¾¨ÄôÀ¢ý ¸£ú (Javanese Indian Culture)±ùŨ¸Â¢Ä¡ÅÐ
    ¦¾¡¼÷Ò ¯ñ¼¡..

  • From: vaasu (@ on: Fri Mar 26 15:26:02


    I was wondering if " valanj chuzi vinayakar" at "Thiruvalanjchuzi"
    has any connection with the Javanese Indian Culture/History..[ Tried writing
    this same quiry in Tamil thro Anjal,wasn't sure if you could read it ; hence writing
    the same question in English again.]

  • From: JayBee (@ on: Fri Mar 26 22:02:40

    «ýÒûÇ Å¡Í,

    ¾Á¢Æ¢ø ÅÕ¸¢ÈÐ.ÀÊì¸Óʸ¢ÈÐ. ¬É¡ø ±ØòÐ «ôÀʦ¡ýÚõ Íò¾Á¡¸ò ¦¾Ã¢ÂÅ¢ø¨Ä. ¬É¡Öõ ÀÊ츧Å
    ¾¢ÕÅÄïÍÆ¢ Å¢¿¡Â¸ÕìÌ ƒ¡Å¡ò¦¾¡¼÷Ò ­ÕìÌÁ¡ ±ýÀÐ ¦¾Ã¢ÂÅ¢ø¨Ä.À¡¨ÇÂí§¸¡ð¨¼ á¸Åý ±ý¦È¡Õ ¬öÅ¡Ç÷ ­Õó¾¡÷. «Å÷ "¾Á¢Æ¸ º¡Å¸ò¦¾¡¼÷Ò¸û" ±ýÈ á¦Ä¡ý¨È ±Ø¾¢ÔûÇ¡÷.

    The same thing in English:
    I can read the Tamil characters. Clarity is a little decreased. Otherwise readable:-)
    God! This is fascinating. I thought Tamil could only be written in the Tamil-based mailing lists.
    Thanks for the revelation.
    Javanese-Thiruvalanjsulzhi Viwaayagar connection?
    Not that I know of. The late PaalayankOttai Ragavan has written a book on "Thamilzhaga Caavaagak Kalaith thodarbugaL". He also has not mentioned anything.
    In my own research for the book on "New lights on Ganesa Worship" I have not come across Javanese ThiruValanjculzhi Ganesa relationship. I must check again. Its possible. Because, the history that we know of, is not even the tip of the ice-berg. I wonder if you are following the thread on "PalzaiyaaRai" in the Agathiyar list. The facts are combined to give a holistic view.You can see a lot of Global Politics and connections being dealt there.
    We tend to think that we were quite confined. But it was on the contrary. In later times, we put on blinders and halters and became horses to others:-)


  • From: JayBee (@ on: Fri Mar 26 22:13:49

    From: bb (@ on: Fri Mar 26 10:38:04
    what was the period of hannibal?

    Hannibal crossed the Alps in 217 B.C.with fifty thousand men, nine thousand cavalry and 37 war elephants. He defeated a Roman army of eighty six thousand men. This was known as the second Punic War.


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1 comment:

  1. Now we are getting the message "Sorry, the GeoCities web site you were trying to reach is no longer available.". Please advise revised url and oblige